Forums


New Topic Reply   Previous Page  Page: 1   Previous Page
Russia-Georgia Conflict: Who to Believe?
Created on: 08/17/08 01:53 AM Replies: 4

What do you make of this?? Thoughts?

Fox news cutting off an interview with girl who is trying to tell people what is going on...



I have a post about my thoughts on my messageboard (http://nonzerosumgain.freeforums.org), and copied it here:

I have spent a lot of time on YouTube trying to figure out what's going on... the final answer has been very elusive... there is more than one side to this story.

Here's what I understand from news and whatnot. Georgia attacked seperatists in it's own province to restore control of the area. Russia military crossed the border and started attacking Georgian military to protect it's own Russian peacekeepers that were in the area, and Russian citizens in the area. Both sides are being asked to cease fire and return to original positions, but this is not happening in a timely manor. Georgia had a lot of it's military in Iraq, training with US military. Georgia military was 3rd largest presence in Iraq. When Russia attacked Georgia, US flew Georgian military from Iraq back to Georgia to help assist the country against the Russian operation. Russia was upset with the US for doing this. Abkhazia and South Ossetia are two regions in Georgia in which there are seperatists that want to break away from Georgia. Russia encourages this. The US opposes this. The US says that Russia overstepped it's boundaries, took things too far, and must be disciplined. Any further violence will not be tolerated. Russia says they are defending their own people from attack. They also say Georgia is committing genocide within the seperatist regions. Georgia says Russia has invaded the country and is doing ethnic cleansing. Georgia is just trying to maintain peace.

Ok, considering the above, this is a pretty confusing situation. Especially since it seems that Russia and Georgia are basically pointing fingers at each other. The news doesn't help... they are not explaining the situation well and seem to be at a loss when it comes to details. They "get reports" of further Russian military action, but say they can't be confirmed at this time. They like to mention that there is an important oil line in Georgia that may be of interest to the Russian government, and they mention that Russia has been offering citizenship and passports to people of the breakaway provinces... and well, that's about all they have to say.

Russia says they've accomplished their goals and I've heard that they are saying that Georgia can't have it's breakaway provinces back. The US says that Russia must respect the sovereignty of Georgia's borders and that the provinces will remain Georgian territory.

It leaves one to wonder, what's going on in those areas, why did Georgia feel the need to control the area, who started this, why can't I get any details? Well it seems I've just now found some history on wikipedia...



Quote:
After the Russian Revolution of 1917, Georgia had a brief period of independence as a Democratic Republic (1918-1921), which was terminated by the Red Army invasion of Georgia. Georgia became part of the Soviet Union in 1922 and regained its independence in 1991. Early post-Soviet years were marked by a civil unrest and economic crisis. Georgia began to gradually stabilize in 1995, and achieved more effective functioning of state institutions following a bloodless change of power in the so-called Rose Revolution of 2003.[4] However, Georgia continues to suffer from the unresolved secessionist conflicts in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Relations with Russia remain tense over these issues as well as Georgia’s aspiration of NATO membership.

On April 9, 1991, shortly before the collapse of the USSR, Georgia declared independence. On May 26, 1991, Zviad Gamsakhurdia was elected as a first President of independent Georgia. However, he was soon deposed in a bloody coup d'état, from December 22, 1991 to January 6, 1992. The coup was instigated by part of the National Guards and a paramilitary organization called 'Mkhedrioni'. The country became embroiled in a bitter civil war which lasted almost until 1995. Eduard Shevardnadze returned to Georgia in 1992 and joined the leaders of the coup — Kitovani and Ioseliani — to head a triumvirate called the 'State Council'.

In 1995, Shevardnadze was officially elected as a president of Georgia. At the same time, two regions of Georgia, Abkhazia and South Ossetia, quickly became embroiled in disputes with local separatists that led to widespread inter-ethnic violence and wars. Supported by Russia, Abkhazia and South Ossetia achieved de facto independence from Georgia. More than 250,000 Georgians were ethnically cleansed from Abkhazia by Abkhaz separatists and North Caucasians volunteers (including Chechens) in 1992-1993. More than 25,000 Georgians were expelled from Tskhinvali as well, and many Ossetian families were forced to abandon their homes in the Borjomi region and move to Russia.



It's interesting to read about the Rose Revolution ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Revolution ) during which the current president won the favor of the public and pushed out the previous leader who was thought to have won by rigged elections. Mikheil Saakashvili was elected as President of Georgia in 2004. Again with Wikipedia:



Quote:
Following the Rose Revolution, a series of reforms was launched to strengthen the country's military and economic capabilities. The new government's efforts to reassert the Georgian authority in the southwestern autonomous republic of Ajaria led to a major crisis early in 2004. Success in Ajaria encouraged Saakashvili to intensify his efforts, but without success, in the breakaway South Ossetia. These events along with accusations of Georgian involvement in the Second Chechen War ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War ), resulted in a severe deterioration of relations with Russia, fueled also by Russia's open assistance and support to the two secessionists areas. Russian military bases (dating back to Soviet era) in Georgia were evacuated, with the last remaining base in Batumi handed over to Georgia in 2007.

On August 8, Russian military forces entered South Ossetia and Abkhazian launching a series of air strikes against Georgian forces. Due to the intensive fighting in South Ossetia there were many disputed reports about the number of casualties on both sides, targets which had fallen under aerial attacks, troop movements and the current front line between the Georgian and Russian-Ossetian combat units. On August 12, Russian President Medvedev met the President-in-Office of the European Union, French President Nicolas Sarkozy, and approved a six-point peace plan. Late that night Georgian President Saakashvili agreed to the text. The translation of the six points is by the Times, from a French language document provided by a Georgian negotiator. Sarkozy's plan originally had just the first four points. Russia added the fifth and sixth points. Georgia asked for the additions in parentheses, but Russia rejected them, and Sarkozy convinced Georgia to agree to the unchanged text.

1. No recourse to the use of force.

2. Definitive cessation of hostilities.

3. Free access to humanitarian aid (addition rejected: and to allow the return of refugees).

4. Georgian military forces must withdraw to their normal bases of encampment.

5. Russian military forces must withdraw to the lines prior to the start of hostilities. While awaiting an international mechanism, Russian peacekeeping forces will implement additional security measures (addition rejected: six months).

6. Opening of international discussions on the modalities of lasting security in Abkhazia and South Ossetia (addition rejected: based on the decisions of the U.N. and the O.S.C.E.).

According to RIA Novosti, "Sarkozy told a briefing after talks with his Georgian counterpart that the deal also includes some changes requested by Georgia... 'we have removed the issue of South Ossetia's status from the document'". But the New York Times, citing a Georgian negotiator, reported that Sarkozy convinced Georgia to accept the Russian version unchanged, after Medvedev waited two hours to return his phone call and then rejected the proposed changes. The U.S. newspaper further asserted that the fifth point was crucial, and Russia used it to justify continuing hostilities into Georgia proper after the agreement.

On August 14, Medvedev met with South Ossetia President Eduard Kokoity and Abkhazia President Sergei Bagapsh, where they signed the six principles. Reports of wide spread fighting, looting and burning have circulated in Western media outlets, prompting US President George W. Bush to warn Russia to withdraw to its pre-ceasefire positions with no relevant result.



Wow, it's amazing how much of this is not told in the news.

Due to it's past, you would think that Russia just keeps trying to take over more territory, but then again, it's not hard for other countries to think that the US is trying to do the same thing.

Ok, so there's the history, but STILL, WHAT HAPPENED!?!? Who shot first, who did what, what's going on? Who was the Georgian military shooting at, just the seperatists, or anybody and everybody, including Russian peacekeepers? It's also a bit strange that it all happened on the first day of the Olympics. Were the Russian peacekeepers trying to contain the seperatists, or were they helping them? If so, helping them do what?

If the Georgian president did indeed attack it's own provinces, then how different is Russia's actions from that of the United States when it took out the government of Iraq?

If Russia did indeed want the whole country, certainly it could have taken it, but no, they are letting the country survive, which in my opinion, seems pretty generous of them. Russia just seems to have interest in the breakaway Russian-loyal areas of the country.

Either way, why would Russia NOT fight back? The president of Georgia claimed that the Russian tanks were waiting at the border before he attacked, and claimed that the tanks had begun to cross over before his attack. Ok, well, maybe... but this guy has also shown himself to be a compulsive lier. He claimed that the US was about to secure parts of the country. The US had to step in and reiterate that they were only sending humanitarian aid.

So, let's not listen to him. What about the US? It still bugs me that the US news doesn't report more information. Everything is too general and non-specific. US was also training Georgian troops in Iraq. Nothing is known, nothing is confirmed, it's still complicated. Can you imagine being the president of the United States and being told that "we just can't get any information..."? Yeah right... I could imagine him yelling "Well, get your ass down there and find out what's going on right NOW!!!" Yeah... um, they know what's going on... who are they trying to kid? The whole US population? Hmm... maybe.

And this is where it gets interesting... all that lack of information... yeah, um, it appears that at least the Russians know what's going on. Look on YouTube, there are MASSIVE amounts of reports on this conflict. The Russians are trying to reach out to people to let them know what's really happening, while the western governments are keeping things hidden. Isn't that odd?

Some say that the Russian news is propaganda and we are all fighting an information war with each other. Well, some things I am not so sure about, but then their reports do seem to report pro-russian and pro-western thoughts on the matter. They almost seem unbiased, but obviously, they're gonna be biased. The thing is they have SOO much information about this, and yet we get very little. I didn't know what to think for a while... but then I started to see stories about Fox news cutting off an interview with a 12 yr old girl who was there when they tried to tell people what was going on ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7CE8kKYMPU )... and then I saw this video and this guy certainly seems to understand exactly what's going on in the area:

Georgia is a US Project
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9hbLooJYOI

I still am not quite sure what to believe here, but wow, these last two videos if you watch them all the way through, seem to imply that the western world wants you to believe that Russia is at fault, but the truth may be that Russia is telling the truth about what happened.

That also reminds me about how President Bush wanted to protest russia by not going to a meeting that was suggested by Russia.

Are Bush's strategies pushing us towards another cold war or maybe even world war III? Either way, this is a very dangerous situation. Russia says, "forget the provinces in Georgia, they are no longer yours," and the US says, "I'm sorry, but we won't let you have them". Then there's the whole Poland US defense system conflict with Russia. Russia doesn't like it... they think it could be targeted at Russia, and could be used to render Russian's systems useless. The US is strongly pushing it even though Russia said there would be a 100% chance of them attacking it if it's built.

I for one, am going to be keeping a close eye on this conflict, and I'm going to be keeping an open mind as well... I hope you all do the same.
Most recent track: Tecknixia - Technology 2009 Version Strm Dnld

nonzerosumgain.freeforums.org
Edited 08/17/08 2:00 AM

http://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-south-ossetia-the-war-of-my-dreams/ is my favorite writing on this whole thing.


Quote:
So: hard people on every side in that part of the world. No quarter asked or given. No good guys. Especially not the Georgians. They have a rep as good people, one-on-one, but you don’t want to mess with them and you especially don’t want to try to take land from them.

The Georgians bided their time, then went on the offensive, Caucasian style, by pretending to make peace and all the time planning a sneak attack on South Ossetia. They just signed a treaty granting autonomy to South Ossetia this week, and then they attacked, Corleone style. Georgian MLRS units barraged Tskhinvali, the capital city of South Ossetia; Georgian troops swarmed over Ossetian roadblocks; and all in all, it was a great, whiz-bang start, but like Petraeus asked about Iraq way back in 2003, what’s the ending to this story? As in: how do you invade territory that the Russians have staked out for protection without thinking about how they’ll react?

Saakashvili just didn’t think it through. One reason he overplayed his hand is that he got lucky the last time he had to deal with a breakaway region: Ajara, a tiny little strip of Black Sea coast in southern Georgia. This is a place smaller than some incorporated Central Valley towns, but it declared itself an “autonomous” republic, preserving its sacred basket-weaving traditions or whatever. You just have to accept that people in the Caucasus are insane that way; they’d die to keep from saying hello to the people over the next hill, and they’re never going to change. The Ajarans aren’t even ethnically different from Georgians; they’re Georgian too. But they’re Muslims, which means they have to have their own Lego parliament and Tonka-Toy army and all the rest of that Victorian crap, and their leader, a wack job named Abashidze (Goddamn Georgian names!) volunteered them to fight to the death for their worthless independence. Except he was such a nut, and so corrupt, and the Ajarans were so similar to the Georgians, and their little “country” was so tiny and ridiculous, that for once sanity prevailed and the Ajarans refused to fight, let themselves get reabsorbed by that Colussus to the North, mighty Georgia.

Well, like I’ve said before, there’s nothing as dangerous as victory. Makes people crazy. Saakashvili started thinking he could gobble up any secessionist region—like, say, South Ossetia. But there are big differences he was forgetting—like the fact that South Ossetia isn’t Georgian, has a border with Russia, and is linked up with North Ossetia just across that border. The road from Russia to South Ossetia is pretty fragile as a line of supply; it goes through the Roki Tunnel, a mountain tunnel at an altitude of 10,000 feet. I have to wonder why the Georgian air force—and it’s a good one by all accounts—didn’t have as its first mission in the war the total zapping of the South Ossetian exit of that tunnel. Or if you don’t trust the flyboys, send in your special forces with a few backpacks full of HE. There are a lot of ways to cripple a tunnel. Hell, do it low-tech: drive a fuel truck in there, with a car following, jackknife the truck halfway through with a remote control or timing fuse—truck driver gets out and strolls to the car, one fast U-turn and you’re out and back in Georgia, just in time to see a ball of flame erupt from the tunnel exit. And rebuilding a tunnel way up in the mountains is not an easy or a fast job. Sure, the Russians could resupply by air, but that’s a much, much tougher job and would at least slow down the inevitable. Weird, then, that as far as I know the Georgians didn’t even try to blast that tunnel. I don’t go in for this kind of long-distance micromanaging of warfare, because there’s usually a good reason on the ground for tactical decisions; it’s the strategic decisions that are really crazy most of the time. But this one I just don’t get.


Edited to add: One of my favorite curmudgeons has some more good stuff today: http://jameshowardkunstler.typepad.com/clusterfuck_nation/2008/08/reality-bites-again.html
* Radio Free Entropy: http://just-john.com/jjMusic
Edited 08/18/08 6:22 AM

I trust the democratically elected president of Georgia before I trust the ex KGB socialist.

I heard someone, or read someone, in the news, say something about suspecting "foul play on both sides", I tend to side with this perspective now. In short, yes, Russia invaded Georgia, and yes, Georgia attacked it's "own citizens". I guess that's all I have to say about it now.
Most recent track: Tecknixia - Technology 2009 Version Strm Dnld

nonzerosumgain.freeforums.org

For the last eight years the US's 'news' has become less and less trustworthy, and FOX is a joke. They brought us many delightful 'truths' during 9/11.

I have been very interested in this situation myself, having relatives in the area. Thank you for bringing a lot of information to the surface.


Quote:
If the Georgian president did indeed attack it's own provinces, then how different is Russia's actions from that of the United States when it took out the government of Iraq?


This is something that has crossed my mind several times.

And again, Sub, I have to say I agree with you. Cool, right on.

New Topic Reply   Previous Page  Page: 1   Previous Page



Artists and Music Fans - Join For Free!