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Michael Chocholak
Joined: 01/14/04
Posts: 135
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RE: Debunking Global Warming Myths
Sunday, November 18, 2007 at 2:55 PM
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it'd be nice if it took a break or just went away completely. just because america didn't get hit with extreme hurricanes this year doesn't mean global warming or climate change is a myth. a lot of other places that don't normally see extreme weather have had unrelenting extremes. tornadoes in london?
(I thought you didn't have an argument with climate change - I thought your argument was against humans being responsible - no?)
Que la musique sonne - Edgard Varese
You don't need a mouth to communicate, you don't need rules to create. Anything is a potential instrument. Play it. - MC
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Subtronik
Joined: 01/14/03
Posts: 1193
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RE: Debunking Global Warming Myths
Sunday, November 18, 2007 at 4:51 PM
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I'm against alarmists, not the possibility of climate change.
Climate change is happening, but I believe it's cyclical.
There's a large amount of children right now that think the world is going to end because of us, and I think that's f'd up.
Also, if you doubt the man that created the weather channel, who's been a meteorologist for 55 years, then there's no convincing you.
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Michael Chocholak
Joined: 01/14/04
Posts: 135
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RE: Debunking Global Warming Myths
Sunday, November 18, 2007 at 5:56 PM
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yes, I've heard him.
yes, there are climate cycles. but they are not locked in. the extremes of those cycles can be influenced - and I think they are. both things are happening. both are truths.
alarmists can obscure the bigger picture - the one that includes both truths - with what is seen as their hysteria. but our history shows that big change often doesn't happen until obsessively committed people make a lot of noise. and if you are one of millions earlier this year in india that spent days in water up to your waist as far as the eye could see, or you used to live on a pacific island and are petitioning for refugee status because your island is disappearing, or you're an inuit watching the polar ice cap disappear, then you might (understandably) be prone to adopting an alarmist point of view.
I tend to be an optimistic cynic, but I think in this case all the arguing will be moot. the world (as we know it) is ending. of course, it always is, but this episode is going to get very nasty for a lot of people. I agree with your point that it would be pretty bad anyway. I'm just thinking it's too bad we didn't try to anticipate it and alleviate it instead of just pressing on as if we weren't involved.
Que la musique sonne - Edgard Varese
You don't need a mouth to communicate, you don't need rules to create. Anything is a potential instrument. Play it. - MC
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Tecknixia
Joined: 08/15/01
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 108
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RE: Debunking Global Warming Myths
Monday, November 19, 2007 at 3:28 AM
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I agree with a lot of what Michael has said, but there's one thing in this whole hype thing that still doesn't quite fit in... why is no one talking about water vapor, except the skeptics?
Look at the data, does not water vapor have a much more powerful impact on the greenhouse effect than CO2? Why the focus on CO2?
Well, obviously it's because of the vast amount of that gas we have put into the atmosphere. I certainly have no doubt humans have done at least something major like that to the atmosphere... I remember, when I was growing up, riding in the car while we drove past this HUGE chimmeny type thing with black smoke pouring into the sky. I still don't know what it was, but I knew it was bad, and I never liked the fact that it was there. So yeah, I wouldn't doubt the 30% more figure that's been presented... and I honestly can't say that it absolutely 100% sure won't turn our planet into another venus, but I seriously doubt it. If we kept adding CO2 to the atmosphere as the same rate we always have been then yes, eventually I suppose it could happen, but I'm sure we'd correct the mistake long before that happens... besides, we already have ideas on how to cool the Earth, so I seriously don't consider this the end of the world, unless it's of course used as Michael mentioned.
Now, here's what's got me confused... in order to reduce carbon emissions, we're working on newer automobile technologies including hybrid technology and electric vehicles. What's one of the main newer technologies out there getting all the attention? Fuel Cells. Fuel Cells will power electric cars by using hydrogen gas as their fuel. Correct me if I'm wrong, the byproduct is water vapor. So tell me, if water vapor has more of an effect on the greenhouse effect then CO2s, then why are we switching from CO2 emissions to water vapor emissions to solve our problem of global warming? People see the byproduct of Fuel Cells to be something pure, something natural, something harmless. Why? Because the same people who want people to think that the main reason the planet is warming is due to CO2 emissions, want them to think that way. They want people to think, CO2 = bad, and H2O = good.
Well, think about this... it all has to do with newer technology and investment opportunities. CO2 production is old technology that isn't changing much. By putting a bad name on CO2 emissions, we can create for ourselves newer technology markets with which to invest in and get rich off of. Is that bad? Of course not! But lying to people is. Bottom line is, "we" don't worry about the state of the world until it's affecting our daily lives... everyone can tell that we don't care enough about climate change to do whatever we can to affect it. We'll just put in a small percentage and pretend that we care and hopefully everyone will believe us and support us.
How much research has gone into the effect on global warming if all vehicles were switched to fuel cell powered vehicles? I'm guessing probably not very much. Personally I love the idea of fuel cells and think it's an awesome new technology, but I don't understand why it's not creating any concern for climate change alarmists. Or maybe have I hit the nail on the head?
Most recent track: Tecknixia - Technology 2009 Version Strm Dnldnonzerosumgain.freeforums.org
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Michael Chocholak
Joined: 01/14/04
Posts: 135
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RE: Debunking Global Warming Myths
Monday, November 19, 2007 at 8:54 AM
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that's a good point. maybe the general population isn't worrying about water vapor because they are so familiar with it in a direct and visceral way - rain, fog, clouds - as opposed to co2 or methane, etc; they remember the good ole hydrological cycle and think 'hey, its a good thing' which to a large extent it is. even the scientific community is uncertain because water vapor creates clouds which reflect a lot of radiation so its automatically got both pro & con aspects. I don't think anybody knows how to accurately factor it in to the models - which are usually flawed anyway - for years they didn't bother to factor in pollution.
but I think you're right about money having a major effect on which way public sentiment will be drawn by corporations.
Que la musique sonne - Edgard Varese
You don't need a mouth to communicate, you don't need rules to create. Anything is a potential instrument. Play it. - MC
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(((stereofect)))
Joined: 09/02/01
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1333
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RE: Debunking Global Warming Myths
Tuesday, November 20, 2007 at 7:38 AM
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Well... the AR4 Synthesis Report is ready. I'm slowly digesting it. It's twenty-three pages of some pretty hardcore stuff coupled with lots of pretty graphics. Some nice light reading before you go to sleep.

Should be interesting to hear what our esteemed policy-makers have to say about it. If they even read it.


“Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius — and a lot of courage — to move in the opposite direction.” Albert Einstein
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(((stereofect)))
Joined: 09/02/01
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1333
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RE: Debunking Global Warming Myths
Wednesday, November 21, 2007 at 6:16 AM
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Save the planet... drink rats' milk, says Heather Mills.
“Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius — and a lot of courage — to move in the opposite direction.” Albert Einstein
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Tecknixia
Joined: 08/15/01
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 108
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RE: Debunking Global Warming Myths
Thursday, November 22, 2007 at 1:39 AM
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Honda does it again!
For those talking about electric vehicles, this is basically an electric vehicle that uses hydrogen to create electricity on board (fuel cell technology).
Honda FCX Clarity - The Zero-Emission Sedan of the Future. A Reality Today.
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/
Ok, it does say "water vapor" in the commercial (in the gallery section). Although, if it were confirmed to be a problem, it really would not be that hard to design a way to collect the water and release it later... hold on, the car has to pee... ahhhhh! The technology is a great way to step away from gasoline dependence and pollution.
Ok, that does it, I want one.
Most recent track: Tecknixia - Technology 2009 Version Strm Dnldnonzerosumgain.freeforums.org
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(((stereofect)))
Joined: 09/02/01
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1333
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RE: Debunking Global Warming Myths
Thursday, November 22, 2007 at 7:02 AM
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I do like the Hydrogen fuel cell idea. I am curious to know how they'll handle a Canadian winter. Snow, ice, temperatures that can go into the minus 30 range in my area. Lower in other parts o' da country.
I can visualise the phone calls now...
"Hi, I won't be in to work today. The water vapor reservoir in my hydrogen fuel cell car is frozen solid."

I'm sure that particular luxury is a few years/decades away from reality though.
I just wish provincial governments (like the one we have here in Ontario) wouldn't do stupid shit like tell the voters they're gonna clean up a problem (like smog for instance) and then turn around and hand millions of dollars over to the auto sector to build Camaros. This very thing was done earlier this year here in Ontario.

Truth is stranger than fiction....
“Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius — and a lot of courage — to move in the opposite direction.” Albert Einstein
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Tecknixia
Joined: 08/15/01
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 108
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RE: Debunking Global Warming Myths
Thursday, November 22, 2007 at 12:45 PM
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(((stereofect))) wrote:I am curious to know how they'll handle a Canadian winter. Snow, ice, temperatures that can go into the minus 30 range in my area. Lower in other parts o' da country.
From the website, "2005: ... Startups now possible at -30°C."
So I guess if it goes lower, there might be trouble... but I'm sure people will use something like block heaters to make it possible.
I forgot to mention that BMW also has a fuel cell vehicle out called the Hydrogen 7, and is the world's first hydrogen powered luxury performance vehicle.
(((stereofect))) wrote:I just wish provincial governments (like the one we have here in Ontario) wouldn't do stupid shit like tell the voters they're gonna clean up a problem (like smog for instance) and then turn around and hand millions of dollars over to the auto sector to build Camaros. This very thing was done earlier this year here in Ontario.
Ahh, it must have something do to with the old Camaro/Firebird plant. I heard something about them not being able to use those names ever again for future production vehicles. I haven't kept up with the story though, so I'm assuming those millions have something to do with it... but yeah, too bad it didn't go to environmental causes.
Oh, that reminds me... taken from Wikipedia, I found this interesting:
"Electricity generated in Switzerland is 42% from nuclear and 53% from hydroelectricity with 5% of the electricity generated from conventional power sources (thermal etc.) resulting in a nearly CO2-free electricity-generating network."
"Switzerland is heavily active in recycling and anti-littering regulations and is one of the top recyclers in the world with 66% to 96% of the different recyclable materials being recycled. In many places in Switzerland, household rubbish disposal is charged for. Garbage (except dangerous items, batteries etc.) will only be collected if it is in bags which either have a payment sticker attached, or in official bags with the surcharge paid when the bags are purchased. This gives a financial incentive to recycle as much as possible, since recycling is free."
Most recent track: Tecknixia - Technology 2009 Version Strm Dnldnonzerosumgain.freeforums.org
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(((stereofect)))
Joined: 09/02/01
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1333
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RE: Debunking Global Warming Myths
Friday, November 23, 2007 at 9:58 AM
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Tecknixia wrote:From the website, "2005: ... Startups now possible at -30°C."
Ah, good.
“Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius — and a lot of courage — to move in the opposite direction.” Albert Einstein
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Michael Chocholak
Joined: 01/14/04
Posts: 135
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RE: Debunking Global Warming Myths
Monday, November 26, 2007 at 11:26 AM
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Quote:Garbage (except dangerous items, batteries etc.) will only be collected if it is in bags which either have a payment sticker attached, or in official bags with the surcharge paid when the bags are purchased. This gives a financial incentive to recycle as much as possible, since recycling is free
incentives are great, but I'm thinking this works as well as it does for Switzerland largely because of their size and demographics - financial demographics. so it probably wouldn't work well in america or most of the rest of the world - too big, too large of a lower and lower middle financial class.
but since garbage collection and disposal is such a crucial issue to pollution and depleting resources, perhaps it should become part of the regular infrastructure. yeah, I know the gov't is largely incompetent - I work for the gov't - but they are the only entity to really take on huge jobs like this. and they are the only ones that will be willing to loose money on garbage tech - like cracking garbage like they do petroleum - until an answer is found.
as far as the hydrogen tech vehicles - it'd sure be nice if someone would come out with a conversion package so you could just drop a new power plant in without having to buy a whole new car. actually that was the most attractive aspect of the Zenn and any of its offspring. considering how many people drive cars... how many of them can go out and buy a 60k hybrid?
Que la musique sonne - Edgard Varese
You don't need a mouth to communicate, you don't need rules to create. Anything is a potential instrument. Play it. - MC
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(((stereofect)))
Joined: 09/02/01
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1333
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RE: Debunking Global Warming Myths
Monday, November 26, 2007 at 6:30 PM
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You might like...
Canadian Electric Vehicles
“Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius — and a lot of courage — to move in the opposite direction.” Albert Einstein
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Michael Chocholak
Joined: 01/14/04
Posts: 135
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RE: Debunking Global Warming Myths
Monday, November 26, 2007 at 7:59 PM
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hey that's cool. still a bit spendy, but it's good to see people working this aspect. if more companies and freelancers jump in the prices should come down a bit.
I had a client offer to convert my Harley to hydrogen power, but I turned him down - not only would it be sacrilege, but he'd never actually completed a project before... and I didn't want a Darwin Award.
still if didn't already have so much on my plate I'd be tempted to take one of the rigs out to the shed and have at it. but I'm still toying with the idea of converting part of my old spray rig into a wind generator.
the big problem, be it my homegrown wind generator or most of these electric cars is the batteries - 2k to 4k to get started and then the same cost every few years for replacement. that kind of removes the incentive regardless of your motivation. that's why I'm so keen on that Texas company developing their new capacitor technology. that could change everything.
Que la musique sonne - Edgard Varese
You don't need a mouth to communicate, you don't need rules to create. Anything is a potential instrument. Play it. - MC
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Michael Chocholak
Joined: 01/14/04
Posts: 135
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RE: Debunking Global Warming Myths
Tuesday, December 4, 2007 at 8:23 PM
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A Really Inconvenient Truth: Divorce Is Not Green

Que la musique sonne - Edgard Varese
You don't need a mouth to communicate, you don't need rules to create. Anything is a potential instrument. Play it. - MC
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Tecknixia
Joined: 08/15/01
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 108
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RE: Debunking Global Warming Myths
Monday, December 24, 2007 at 10:59 PM
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Michael Chocholak wrote:the big problem, be it my homegrown wind generator or most of these electric cars is the batteries - 2k to 4k to get started and then the same cost every few years for replacement. that kind of removes the incentive regardless of your motivation.
You know, the more I read, the more I see Hydrogen as a great system... there are so many applications... and one of them, could fix the battery problem for wind turbines and solar panels. Just take some electricity from those sources during opperation, and send it through some water... the water splits into hydrogen and oxygen. Collect the hydrogen, then either burn it in combustion generators, or use fuel cells to turn it back into electricity for reliable renewable energy. So not only would you be solving the storage problem for renewables, you'd also be able to produce hydrogen with strictly renewable energy!
So now you can farm agriculture (food or biodiesel), wind power, solar power, and hydrogen all in the same place. The biggest issue with hydrogen is that because of it's density, it's not easy to store. You either have to do it at high pressure, or use large amounts of space. Many people are working on better ways to store hydrogen, and one way is to turn it into a small solid tablet using ammonia. It's compact, stable, can be exposed to air at room temperature, and therefore it's easy to transport. It will desolve when introduced to a certain catalyst.
Another big plus is that oil companies already produce hydrogen as a by-product of their operations, so they could also benefit from a hydrogen demand. They already have the gas stations, it wouldn't be hard for them to add a hydrogen pump to their existing stations. They would also benefit by being able to sell the hydrogen, instead of just letting cars become pure electric... if they let that happen, the utility companies have the upper hand instead. The problem with starting the new system is costs of implementing a new distribution system for the hydrogen. It could be created on-site (gas stations), but the technology would cost the companies money. There's no sense in doing all that if there's no interest, so they are trying this out by working with the car companies in big cities first, where car pollution is more of a concern.
One of Honda's refuel stations for hydrogen cars in California is powered by their solar technology. I don't know if the hydrogen is produced from the solar energy or not.
Since hydrogen cars are basically electric cars with a power source... newer versions might include "hybrids" which have impressive battery packs and plug-in to the electrical grid at night. That way the hydrogen would only be used to re-charge the battery pack and you may not even need to use the hydrogen if you drive reasonable distances each day. The hydrogen would be there for longer trips and won't leave you stranded somewhere with a dead battery pack.
This is the same idea behind the Chevy Volt, except it is proposing to use a gasoline engine mated to an electric generator to recharge the batteries instead of a fuel cell... but that doesn't mean there couldn't be a fuel cell version.
Taking that idea another step further... you could put special permanent magnet electric motors in the wheels and dramatically increase the efficiency of the vehicle... but that's just me thinking way ahead. The motor-in-wheel thing has been done... but I'm not sure about the PM motors, except for some bike in Japan.
Ok, so hydrogen sounds great... but will all the water vapor warm the planet also? Well, like mentioned before, water vapor condenses into clouds, and the clouds reflect the sun, and then the water falls back down to earth as rain... I don't know, maybe only a specific amount of water vapor stays in the air... so maybe it's self-regulating... so maybe expelling massive amounts of water vapor is a lot better then expelling massive amounts of CO2.
Well, either way, I say let's go for it, let's turn the oil infrastructure into the hydrogen infrastructure. Fuel Cells will encourage the development of electric car technologies, which could then easily transform into, or at the very least encourage, a pure electric car market.
Ok, now back to renewable energies. What if I told you there's a way for farmers to grow more crops then they do now (by multiples) AND still farm power from the sun and wind? Maybe even possibly convert some of that land back to it's natural habitat? Sound impossible? Well, some people are looking towards ideas of farming within big cities, to save land and transportation costs... there are many, many, many benefits... however, initial cost is always a biggie...
http://www.verticalfarm.com
I stumbled upon this looking for something like an idea that I had come up with. Obviously, I found one. My idea, likewise, aside from cost, has many beneifits (a lot of the same ones). Instead of focusing on cities (which is a great idea, i must admit), I was focusing on farming and my ideas of controlled environments. Instead of tall and skinny, I was thinking low and wide. Huge warehouses with 2, 3, 4 or more levels with which to grow crops in. Using renewable sources for power (utilizing hydrogen storage systems), increasing the amount of land to grow on (or just use hydroponics), creating conditions for best growth (lighting, nutrients, temperature, etc), year long yeilds, save lots of water, etc. Also, if you make the building, instead of being square, so that it's sides slope gadually to the ground, you can put dirt on top of it all, let natural plants grow (energy efficient green roof), and it's a regular looking hill (except for the entrances, haha)! The gradually sloping sides of the building would create additional space for storage or operating rooms. On top of these "hills" is where you can put your renewable energy sources... and possibly leave open space for natural plants and animals. Not only could farmers sell their crops, but also hydrogen and electricity if desired.
One of the best benefits to this model is resistance to climate change! Including droughts, storms, weather changes, all of them, no longer worries! Production and efficiency are increased dramatically.
These are some ideas to solve our problems with growing food and energy demand, and to get away from oil dependence.
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reconsiderate
Joined: 09/29/07
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 76
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RE: Debunking Global Warming Myths
Tuesday, December 25, 2007 at 5:39 AM
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Tecknixia wrote:You know, the more I read, the more I see... Are you involved with this sort of stuff professionally? The way you speak about it, it sounds to me like you're the kind of person who could make a real difference. (Most people, including myself, post a few sentences that just rehash common public thought; you've got paragraphs upon paragraphs of inspired commentary and ideas!)
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(((stereofect)))
Joined: 09/02/01
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1333
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RE: Debunking Global Warming Myths
Tuesday, December 25, 2007 at 7:34 AM
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reconsiderate wrote:[quote="Tecknixia"]The way you speak about it, it sounds to me like you're the kind of person who could make a real difference
The black SUV's will be paying him a visit in order to put an end to any and all thoughts he may be harboring on that topic....
“Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius — and a lot of courage — to move in the opposite direction.” Albert Einstein
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Tecknixia
Joined: 08/15/01
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 108
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RE: Debunking Global Warming Myths
Wednesday, December 26, 2007 at 2:48 AM
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haha, thanks guys... 
Unfortunately, no, I take a great interest in it though and I really would like to be involved. I want to get involved through a career in Electrical Engineering, but the main reason I'm not able to do something about all this is due to the inefficiencies of a thing called "economic status".
It's kinda hard to make a real difference when you're only making $100 - $200 more then what you have to spend each month. You have to spend money to make money, and you need money to make a difference. The problem is I don't have the money to spend. At least I've finally started to use CFLs! I've decided to just recycle them when they fail... but I'm still considering LEDs.
Even if college was paid for (including school loans), I'd still have trouble paying bills. So in order to go to school I can either: 1) get a girlfriend to share the cost of living with (I have a one bedroom condo) 2) somehow manage to land a higher paying job without having skills or a higher education 3) use supplimental income to pay off my condo (would take about 5 years of hard work)
Those three options are in full consideration at the moment. Hopefully I can manage a combination of the three.
btw, stereofect... what did you think about the AR4 report?
Most recent track: Tecknixia - Technology 2009 Version Strm Dnldnonzerosumgain.freeforums.org
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(((stereofect)))
Joined: 09/02/01
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1333
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Twenty cases of beer and a box of cereal...
Monday, January 7, 2008 at 10:12 PM
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ZENN (Zero Emissions No Noise)
Check it out:
http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=8M88k6Ipp3c
“Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius — and a lot of courage — to move in the opposite direction.” Albert Einstein
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