Tecknixia
Joined: 08/15/01
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 108
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Very high pitched buzzing?
Sunday, August 5, 2007 at 12:50 PM
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Hello everyone! Here's my problem:
When recording from my Roland XV-5050, I hear a very high pitched sound (much like when your ears are ringing). When I zoom in all the way with SoundForge at 48kHz and 16bit I can see it. It looks like a very small triangle wave. Either way it's very irritating.
Here's my setup:
The xv-5050 uses 1/4" jacks going into my M-Audio Delta 44 breakout box
casio keyboard, connected through midi to my sound blaster live (same computer)
Yamaha RM1x connected to my xv-5050 through midi
and headphones also connected to the M-Audio output jacks (1/4" x2 for left and right)
Ok, here's what happens:
When I have the 5050 plugged in and turned off I can slightly hear the ringing
When I turn on the 5050 the sound gets even louder
When I plug in the usb cable from the 5050 to the back of my computer it gets even louder
Without the xv-5050 plugged in my noise level is at -84.3db
With the xv-5050 plugged in and off my noise level is at -74.7db
With the xv-5050 turned on, my noise level is -71.2db
What is this? A ground loop? If not what is it? Is my Roland product defective? How do I fix it?
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A Bit Crusher
Joined: 01/26/02
Location: Tilburg
Posts: 1794
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RE: Very high pitched buzzing?
Sunday, August 5, 2007 at 2:12 PM
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I hope it's not a ground loop...I had that problem a few years ago...very hard to find out what's causing it....
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Tecknixia
Joined: 08/15/01
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 108
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RE: Very high pitched buzzing?
Monday, August 6, 2007 at 2:53 AM
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Ok, this is weird...
1. I've found out that the xv-5050 sounds great when connected straight to headphones (both line out and head phone jack, no buzzing... even when it's connected to the computer also (through opposite, line out or head phone jack).
2. The computer gets the buzz either way, through either line out or headphone jack.
3. The computer picks up this buzz ONLY when the xv-5050 is plugged in (even when off) as stated in my first post.
4. My Yamaha RM1x does not create this problem (it does have an inline ac/dc converter though, where as the XV-5050 plugs straight into the ac... if that matters).
5. The other sound card (sound blaster live) picks up this buzzing noise as well.
Oh yeah, also, it's not just a triangle wave, it's actually a pretty strange looking wave with lots of noise (with a 40db volume magnification).
I don't get it...
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Sonic Wallpaper
Joined: 05/22/01
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1266
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RE: Very high pitched buzzing?
Monday, August 6, 2007 at 8:18 AM
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I'm not too slick w/ electronics - but just did a search on ground loops - and found a few page s w/ some good info:
http://www.gbaudio.co.uk/data/ground.htm
http://www.epanorama.net/documents/groundloop/index.html
is the power plug on the xv-5050 only a 2-prong? If it's a 3, you can try using a 2-prong adapter, that sometimes does it.
or try running the power out to another room that is possibly on a different 'switch' in the house.
===
on the cheapo sound card I have in my PC, the only way to get rid of the buzz is to adjust the microphone volume and the card's volume until it hits a sweet spot, then there's some type of cancellation happening. The high end card I use doesn't get any buzzing, except when I play a single coil instrument though it, but that's the single coil pickup who is at fault.
good luck 
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Tecknixia
Joined: 08/15/01
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 108
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RE: Very high pitched buzzing?
Monday, August 6, 2007 at 12:58 PM
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Thanks Gideon, there's a lot of info there, I'll try a bunch of things and hopefully something works.
It's a three prong, but the site you gave me suggests that using that method (using 2 prongs) for curing the problem is unsafe.
I tried connecting the power to the kitchen, but still got the noise. I think my computer may be causing the problem, I'll try recording noise with another device and see if there's any noise.
Thanks for the help! I'll report back if I find anything.
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Subtronik
Joined: 01/14/03
Posts: 1193
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RE: Very high pitched buzzing?
Monday, August 6, 2007 at 7:00 PM
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When did you notice the sound and can you remember if you changed anything (hardware, software, etc.) before you noticed it?
Try updating your driver, the delta 44's last one is from 04/05/2007 (if you use xp that is) link
Power cables next to, or crossing, audio cables can sometimes cause audio interference.
The last time I had any audible noise on my system was due to cheap 1/4" cables.
Good luck.
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Tecknixia
Joined: 08/15/01
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 108
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RE: Very high pitched buzzing?
Tuesday, August 7, 2007 at 1:18 AM
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I wish I knew... I think the noise was there for a while before I actually noticed it, I wasn't paying that close attention so I'm not sure.
There is an audible noise coming from the computer at about the same pitch... not sure if it's related. However, when I record the RM1x the audio card doesn't pick up any buzz. Which also means that it's not the audio cables picking up interference... and not likely the sound card driver either, although I think I'll try that too. I tried different cable positions, no change.
It seems like problem is only there when the audio cables are connected between the xv-5050 and the computer. Otherwise there is no problem. In fact, I can make the sound even louder by unplugging the 1/4" plugs half way and holding them a certain way inside the jacks. It seems there is a voltage difference between the 5050s jacks and the sound card's input... or something...
I can make the noise a little quiter (not much) by using a cable to connect the case of the xv-5050 to a metal part of the computer's case.
Uuuuu, that gave me an idea. I could try running a wire from the computer power supply's ground cables (ones going to the motherboard) to the xv-5050's case or it's ground prong on the power cable and see if that does anything. That couldn't damage my computer could it?
Another idea I have, is that maybe dust inside the computer's power supply could be causing a very high resistant electrical bridge to a ground connection somehow that could cause a voltage difference between the a/c supply power and the d/c power inside the computer... who knows...
In one of my experiments I will try to record the xv-5050 with a different computer.
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Subtronik
Joined: 01/14/03
Posts: 1193
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RE: Very high pitched buzzing?
Tuesday, August 7, 2007 at 9:01 AM
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I doubt dust is the culprit. It's probably something simple.
You say there's no noise in your computer when the roland's not hooked up so that tells me it's probably something with the roland. But you also say there's no noise when listening to the roland with headphones so it may be your 1/4" outs, possibly either the left or right only.
I remember an old kurzweil I had gave me noise like you're talking about but it ended up being a bad line on the sampler circuit board.
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Tecknixia
Joined: 08/15/01
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 108
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RE: Very high pitched buzzing?
Tuesday, August 7, 2007 at 1:24 PM
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It's not the line outs either, because I plugged the headphones into the line out jacks and there was no noise.
If this is being caused by a bad line on a circuit board or something... I wonder if something is about to burn out in my computer. I have a video card that came with a fan mounted to a heat sink, but the fan stopped running, so I just took it off and left it like that. The video has not been affected though, so I don't think that's causing the problem.
Well, I tried recording the xv-5050 on another computer, and I got noise, but JUST regular noise no buzzing! The noise is probably due to a crappy onboard audio card.
Now the question is, if I move my delta 44 to the other computer and try to record will it buzz or not... I'm hoping no... well, I guess that's my next experiment.
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Subtronik
Joined: 01/14/03
Posts: 1193
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RE: Very high pitched buzzing?
Tuesday, August 7, 2007 at 7:22 PM
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Tecknixia wrote:It's not the line outs either, because I plugged the headphones into the line out jacks and there was no noise.
I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think you'd get the same results that way even if there was a problem with the 1/4" outs.
I think trying your 44 in your other rig is a good idea for narrowing down the possibilities.
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Tecknixia
Joined: 08/15/01
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 108
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RE: Very high pitched buzzing?
Wednesday, August 8, 2007 at 3:47 AM
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Ok, tried it in the other computer... no high pitched noise! It sounds great.
Even with the unit on I'm recording silence at -78.3db, occasionally hitting -76.3db. Opposed to -71.2db on the other computer.
So it was my computer. It's weird though, I would have said it was my wireless network card (since the antenna was right next to the wire going to the breakout box), except for the fact that I didn't have an issue with recording the RM1x in the same situation.
Don't really know what was causing it. All I can say is that either this computer doesn't like my xv-5050, and/or the xv-5050 doesn't like this computer. 
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Subtronik
Joined: 01/14/03
Posts: 1193
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RE: Very high pitched buzzing?
Wednesday, August 8, 2007 at 3:34 PM
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It could be the power supply inside your case, or a fan perhaps.
I've seen electricity do strange things. Electrical frequencies that mismatch can cause problems.
I've had cordless equipment next to my am radio walkman that created the weirdest sound effects.
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Subtronik
Joined: 01/14/03
Posts: 1193
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RE: Very high pitched buzzing?
Monday, September 3, 2007 at 2:51 AM
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So did you ever figure out what was causing the noise, or are you still working on it?
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Tecknixia
Joined: 08/15/01
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 108
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RE: Very high pitched buzzing?
Tuesday, September 4, 2007 at 1:14 PM
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Not really, I've been busy with other things lately.
I think I did notice it on the other computer as well... just not as loud. I'm thinking it could be the wireless network, not sure. I'll still have to do some playing around.
I'm thinking of getting a newer computer so I can hopefully work with 24/96 files... and have a nice monitor to work with, instead of a 15" that loses it's red color often.
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Tecknixia
Joined: 08/15/01
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 108
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Very high pitched buzzing? might be the xv5050
Wednesday, January 16, 2008 at 12:49 PM
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I'm still not sure why there's a noise... but I'm just gonna assume it's the xv-5050 since I don't get buzzing from my RM1x. I still wanna try to take out my wireless card to see if that's interfering with the unit, but that's too much of a hassle.
Anyways, I found a work-a-round solution... and it certainly shouldn't have taken me this long to think of doing it. I connected my digital audio out of the xv5050 and connected it to the digital audio in of my sound blaster live card. Wow... why didn't I think of that before?
So now I have crisp clean audio to work with... but I'm still using 16-bit, so I'll have to find out if there's an adapter I can use with the delta card for digital audio... if not then I guess I'll have to get a different card.
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